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IFB113: Charlie Munger’s “Invert, always Invert”

Announcer:                        00:00                     You’re tuned in to the Investing for Beginners podcast. Finally, step by step premium investment guidance for beginners led by Andrew Sather and Dave Ahern. To decode industry jargon, silence crippling confusion and help you overcome emotions by looking at the numbers, your path to financial freedom starts now.

Dave:                                    00:36                     All right folks, we’ll welcome to Investing for Beginners podcast. This is episode 130 tonight, Andrew, and I are going to talk a little bit about they called an inversion. I came across this great blog post from a gentleman named James Clear who talks a lot about habits and developing different patterns and ways that we can think better and work better with our minds and how we can set ourselves up to have better processes in our lives. And he talked about inversion. So if those of you who are not familiar with inversion, inversion means that you take something and you turn it upside down, and you look at it from a different angle or a different way. And I’ve talked a little bit about this in the past. And Charlie Mugger is a big fan of a; I’m a big fan of Charlie monger. I was going to say; he’s a big fan of mine. That’s so not true. , I’m a big fan of Charlie Munger and the way he thinks. He’s a very, very deep guy.

Dave:                                    01:33                     And he talks a lot about inversion in his blog posts, in his books, in his speeches that he gives. And he’s always quoting this term, invert, always invert. And you got that from a mathematician named, Carl Jacobi and this is a German mathematician, and he was famous for figuring out very, very hard problems by inverting them. And by, what he meant by this was that he would take a math problem and look at the answer and try to work backward to try to figure out how to solve the problem as opposed to looking at the problem and then moving forward trying to figure out what the answer would be. And he felt like that that was a powerful way for him to look at the roadblocks and figure out backward how to look at things. And this is something that I do myself when I’m trying to figure out how to work with different formulas and things that are a little bit above my pay grade so to speak is I will look at the answers and then try to figure out how they come to that conclusion.

Dave:                                    02:39                     And that helps me learn how things work. And you may have heard of Marcus Aurelius, he’s a famous stoic philosopher, and he was famous for this as well. And his exercise, the things that he liked to do was to always look at the negative aspects of something that could happen to you in life. And then think about all the different ways that could come about. And when he would do this, it would help him organize it in his head a to get over the fear of some of these possible things happening, whatever it may be, let’s say losing your job or was in, you know, a child or any of these other negative things. And if you look back from those things and figure out what could go wrong for those to happen, then you could work towards trying to avoid any of those things happening in the future to you.

Dave:                                    03:29                     And it also helps you overcome the fear of some of those things. Let’s say maybe a more relevant term is let’s say you’re getting ready to ask out a girl for the first time. Instead of thinking of how scared you are taken, looking at what could go wrong. The worst thing that could happen is that she says no. And once you look at that and figure out, okay, she could say no and how do you feel about that? And then analyzing your feelings and depending on, you know, how long you’ve been interested in this person. It could be, you know, it just may sting you know, like staying a little bit like a, you know, a mild rejection or if you know, you’re like me, and you pine for the girl for a long time like I did for some girls when I was in college.

Dave:                                    04:16                     Then you know, when you finally got up the courage to ask them out, it was, you know, a little bit devastating when they turned you down. But if you look through those aspects and figure out how you’re going to feel about it, it helps you overcome the fear of actually doing the thing that that you want to do. And when you think about investing, this is a fantastic way of looking at investments and thinking about not only pulling the trigger on buying a company but also when you’re doing the analysis of the company. So if you’re brand new to investing, one of the biggest fears is I’m going to lose my money and inversion. When we’re talking about aversion, one of the biggest ways to be a great investor is to avoid who is in money. And when you’re thinking about investing, a great way to look at something like this is to think about something like investing in the latest shiny new thing.

invert always invert
Different worlds business challenge concept as a global trade meeting between two people from different hemispheres coming together as a surreal idea with 3D illustration elements.

Dave:                                    05:13                     Whether that could be bitcoin or it could be a cryptocurrency, or it could be the marijuana stocks that are all the rage lately. Any of those kinds of things that have this really shiny thing are certainly unknowns. Is there potential for great wealth and involved those? Of course, there is, but there’s also a lot of risks, a ton of risk. And some would say maybe an outsize portion of risk versus what you could gain. And when you’re getting involved in something like that, Andrew and I probably would like to argue that what you’re doing is you’re gambling, and when you gamble, then you have a greater size proportion of losing your money risking your money. So if you go to the blackjack table in Vegas and you are not an experienced card player, and you put all your money in, there’s a real good chance you’re going to lose all of it.

Dave:                                    06:04                     And the same thing can happen when you’re an investing. And so when you start to get into investing, and if you’re listening to our show, one of the things, your reasons why you’re doing that is because you want to learn more. So you feel more comfortable about pulling that trigger. And when you’re thinking about inversion, you’re thinking about what are the possible worst things that could happen if I’ve saved up all of my life savings and I put it into stock a, and it goes bad, and I lose all my money. That’s a horrible outcome. And that’s something you want to avoid. So how do you avoid that? The way to, to avoid that is working at more time, tested more principles and guidelines that are set, not necessarily in stone, but are set up for success. And looking at guys like the people we talk about, Warren Buffet, Charlie Munger, Monish Pabrai, Ray Dalio is on and on and on.

Dave:                                    07:00                     There’s just so many people you could talk about that have been successful using the principles that Andrew, Andrew, and I talk about on our show. And so using those, so inverting from, you know, buying the new shiny thing because it’s new and shiny and everybody’s excited about it and looking at buying something a lot more mundane like Hormel or Johnson and Johnson or something like that, which is far from exciting. But those are the kinds of things that are going to make you wealthy over time because of the dividends and because of the great company that it is that it’s going to continue to grow and build earnings and all those great things that Andrew and I talk about. But those are the ways that you can use, this is a brief way that you could use in version two, avoid losing money in the stock because one of the best ways to make money in the stock market, to not lose it, because that’s going to be the biggest buzzkill a for you to ever invest again.

Dave:                                    07:58                     And B, to not continue to try to, to learn and grow from making a mistake. And it doesn’t mean that we’re all not going to make mistakes. Andrew and I, we’re going to talk a little bit about some other things here in a few minutes about mistakes that I made and I’m going to talk about that and why I did what I did and why I got out of what I did. And those are all things that you can learn from. And I think that this, this inversion thing is, it’s this type of thinking is a great way to look at just about anything in their life. Whether it’s your personal life, whether it’s investing, whether it’s work-related, you know, thinking about all the things that you struggle with and trying to work backward from the problem and figuring out what it is that could be the solution. As opposed to looking at this is the problem; this is where I want to go.

Dave:                                    08:47                     How do I get there? Sometimes it’s easier to look at, this is where we are, how can I get there from going back and trying to find the roadblocks that could be hanging you up or preventing you from doing that. And I know I try to do this in my work life as well. You know, beyond just when Andrew and I are doing, when I look at my day job, I look at all the problems, and the struggles and the frustrations that we have in the restaurant world and how do I work backward from those and it, it can help a lot. You can have some great breakthroughs, and you can have a lot of great ideas that can spring from looking at things from a different point of view. You know, think about things like you know, if you sit in the same seat every single day where you eat lunch, sit at a different spot to go to a different table, sit down at a different place. a, you may meet somebody new and B, you’re going to look at things from a different aspect in a different point of view that can open up, you know, so many other possibilities.

Dave:                                    09:44                     And you know, our minds are, are an interesting animal. And when we look at things a different way, it can certainly create different ideas and different paths and different ideas of things that we can do with our lives. And you know, Charlie Munger, when he first turned me on to this whole inversion thing, I thought it was like, wow, this is, this is really interesting. And I started to try to incorporate it in, in different aspects of my life. And it had, it has helped. It has worked in my investing, it has worked in my personal life, and there’s just lots of different ways that you can take this. And I’d be really curious to see what Andrew has to say about this after I’ve been babbling for the last 10 minutes or so.

Andrew:                              10:29                     I’m really curious to hear about your mistakes coming up here because I remember that we highlighted some of my mistakes. I can’t remember which episode that was. And I also don’t remember if like how in-depth we got into your mistakes. And now I feel like we’re balancing the scales a little bit, so that will be fun. The thing I’ll say before you jump into those are at least one to your point, like looking backward and, and thinking of inversion can be a fantastic way. And like you said, not just for investing, but for so many different avenues in life. The behavioral finance guy we interviewed in episode 109, David Keller, he talked about how pilots use the principle of inversion as part of their training. , I mentioned in one of the other previous episodes, I believe it was episode one oh six, about how you can use inversion when you’re at the gym with weightlifting. And also how I have used [inaudible] version to try to limit my losses by using the value trap indicator. And through the research I did on bankruptcies, I had an interesting conversation, a week or two ago with a very successful entrepreneur who does in my area.

Andrew:                              11:54                     He’s been doing it for decades and has seen, you know, seen business through prosperity, through a thriving economy, also seen business during the tough times and through the reception, the recession and had his business survived through that. And I thought that was inspiring how he said, you know, first off, like he’s got full-time employees and had the successful business and, and seems like the, it seems like from an outside perspective like, okay, why would somebody with a lot of money think this way? But what he said was when he went to buy a house, he took, he, he took, he took an inverted look. He didn’t use the word [inaudible], but basically what he did was he looked at, okay, where my business to fail tomorrow and if I were receiving unemployment and working some part-time job, would I still be able to afford this mortgage?

Andrew:                              12:55                     And that’s how he figured out how he was, which house he was going to buy and ended up buying that one. So you know, when you do that, I mean there’s, there are different factors that go along with that. You can buy real estate, buy low, sell high just like you would with stocks. But this can be a valuable tool for really measuring risk tolerance, lining it all up, to, to help you have more chances for success and going to that, that kind of casino metaphor, really stacking the odds in your favor. Because while we can’t all, we can’t always predict everything that happens in the future. But you can account for a lot of things. And so you always hope for the best, but sometimes you want to plan for the worst. And that can be so true with the stock market. And sometimes it’s not always black and white or, or very clear.

Andrew:                              13:53                     And sometimes you need to understand that not every stock pick is going to work out. So as Dave said, you do not want to put everything in one stock, and you see this particularly in the corporate world to where people make that, I mean, even worse than being under diversified, they’re like double under diversified where they solely by stock and the company that they’re working at. So now we’re talking about if the company goes bankrupt, not only have you lost your life savings, but you’ve also lost your job. So you see that in that case. So what’s the logical inversion is you want to diversify. So that’s a big part of inverting that and trying to limit losses. But you know, as a part of that diversification, obviously, when you do make a losing stock pick, we’re all going to do it. If you’re going to be in the stock market any, any length of time. Even

Andrew:                              14:52                   Warren Buffett bought stock in the company that went bankrupt. So these are the things that you want to consider. And as a business kind of turns the other direction. Some of them recover, and those make for fantastic value investing picks with the margin of safety and everything. But sometimes the margin of safety doesn’t get closed because the business flounders so bad. And I think Dave has recent one and Kinda stings probably a little bit still that I would like to hear about. But sometimes you just got to learn when to cut your losses and, there are different ways, and we all have different ideas of doing that. And I would like to hear Dave, how, how you kind of thought that through with your stock.

Dave:                                    15:42                     Okay, so the company that we’re talking about is called GameStop, and it is a company that sells video games. They do little more than that, but that’s the basis of their business. And I invested in this company about two years ago, and I bought in at around 20 some bucks a share. I don’t remember specifically now. I don’t own the company anymore. I did sell out of it, about a year ago or so, but I lost my shirt. , and it is gone even farther south since I got out of it. , I felt like that it was incredibly undervalued, and I felt like that at the time there was, they were trying to change the course of the company obviously with the dual threat of Amazon a killing them as retail wise because people obviously could go online and buy the physical game from Amazon just as well as GameStop. There was also the double whammy of the streaming and being able to download these games either onto your console or either or playing them through a streaming service.

Dave:                                    17:05                     So that has done, did a lot of damage to the company as well. And they were trying to pivot off of that and work more on with trying to get whites offices with streaming companies and we selling of the games and things of that nature. And it just never really panned out. And it’s been a bit of a darling for value investors off and on for the last few years just because it’s the classic undervalued company that had a really good balance sheet, had a lot of good things going for it financially. But the mote that it had eroded almost completely. And it was kind of, I wouldn’t say it’s not titanic by any stretch of the imagination, but it’s certainly was heading down a path that was maybe not the best. And when I got involved with the company, I thought that they had the opportunity to turn it around and I thought that they were going to be doing those kinds of things.

Dave:                                    18:08                     They still paid a fantastic dividend, the yield when I bought it was about over five and a half, 6%. And at one point, I think it got up to almost eight or 9%. And a lot of that had to do with the fact that the dividend had not been cut and they were raising the dividend because they were still generating free cash flow. And they had a lot of assets that we’re enabling them to stay afloat. However, as the stock price continued to take a beating, then the yield went up about that. So it was, it made it look more attractive than it was. And so finally, when I decided to sell out of the company, it was because I just, I felt like I saw the writing on the wall, the moves that they’re trying to make, that we’re going to take the company in or in another direction.

Dave:                                    18:59                     We’re not taking shape as fast or as well as they had hoped. And they just seemed to be more and more pressure on them in regards to the way that the video gaming business was being done by the consumer. And the more that you read, the more that there were just less and fewer people getting involved in the actual units themselves. That there was a lot more involvement in the streaming services. I’m not a video gamer myself, so I can’t speak to that directly personally. But some of the employees that I work with, some of the other friends that I have, they’re more into this, were telling me those things as well. And just the whole, the reselling of used games scenario was not coming to fruition. And I just felt like I saw the writing on the wall. So I got out of the company about a year ago and like I said, I lost a lot.

Dave:                                    19:53                     I think I invested, I can’t remember the dollar amount, but I lost at least two-thirds of what I invested. So it was, you know, not great. And the other aspect of it too, now if you look at the latest news of the company, I was reading an article on Seeking Alpha, and they are, somebody, posted some news about GameStop on there, which caught my attention. , I just looked at the stock, and it’s now trading at $4 and 23, I’m sorry, $4 and 32 cents as of today. And it dropped off from about, Jeez, $10 a few days ago to now $4 and 32 cents. So, it took a piling, and the reason why I took a pummeling is they cut their dividends and they, the management has since I got out of the company, they have a new CEO, they have a new CFO.

Dave:                                    20:51                     The people that were in charge of the company all left a voluntarily. To me, that was a sign also that, hey, the things are not going well, this is not going where we wanted to go. We’re going to get out now before the ship finally sinks. And they don’t have any prospects for somebody to come in and buy him out because the business model that they’re in is dying a horrible death. And so they don’t have a lot of places to go with what they’re doing. The new management, as I said, cut the dividend completely, which, investors hate to see and that killed the stock. And then they announced that they’re repurchasing shares, which was typical, it would be a good thing because the company is so undervalued. But I think a lot of people took that negatively too because they’re using that cash to buy back shares when they could probably be trying to use it to either acquire more assets that could increase the business or do other things with it.

Dave:                                    21:53                     So all those things have made, you know, me glad that I’m out of the company, but also illustrated that we make mistakes and you know, all the different reasons why we buy into the company. Once they change, then we have to decide on why we’re still in the company. And it also illustrates that my original thesis was wrong that you know, I, I think I fell into the trap of, I fell all over the company and so I was looking for reasons to love the company more. And I guess the easiest way to say it is I started drinking the Koolaid, and I didn’t realize that some of the things that they were saying if I had worked a little more broadly at the video gaming market. I would have seen some of these things on the horizon and would have been a lot more hesitant about investing in the stock. So that’s a big reason why I got into the company. So that’s why that was a mistake for me.

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Andrew:                              23:06                     I’m like right there with you in a way. So I bought the game stop at the beginning of 2017 at like 25, and I got out at like 18 just seven months later. I’m like, I, I feel like I know a little bit more than the average person about the video game industry cause both my brothers play video games. So I know like there’s a huge shift and I’m sure people have heard of, why did I blank on it? My, my daughter does the dances from it like at least once a week. , what’s that at fortnight? Oh yeah. Fortnite yeah.

Andrew:                              23:46                     The model behind Fortnite is it’s an online, online-only game and you don’t, from what, from what I understand, you can have like a console, or I think a lot, most people play on the computer. But then, the business model for them is not; they make money on the games, which is historically how game stop has always made their money. They, they either resell the games, or they give you like a dollar if you turn in an old game, and they turn around and resell it for ten bucks or them, they sell like a lot of their money was on people getting excited about the new game. And then they would sell all these preorders and then deliver those. And then you could also buy the consoles and all the accessories with that. But for games like Fortnight and other games that paved the road for a fortnight, it’s a free game to play, so you don’t have to pay anything for it.

Andrew:                              24:40                     And then you kind of buy add-on as you play the game to decorate your character and stuff. I’m pretty sure so like it’s, it’s, it’s a completely different business model, and the game stops. Now the part of that at all and just very recently, I want to say, I don’t know the exact timeline, but it hasn’t been very long, but , Fortnite really took the mainstream and, and like became a part of popular culture like nothing else, like no other video game ha ever has. And so that doesn’t help GameStop either at all if they’re not. , if they’re not a part of that. And if anything, the trend of the online free model has continued, and there’s this new game called apex legends that’s, I’m taking what Fortnite had and moving along with it. And so, yeah, I mean that’s tough. I like how you were able to get out.

Andrew:                              25:43                     It sounds like before the dividend was cut itself. So that’s good. I see the writing on the wall is good, and sometimes like, I can’t remember where I heard that or read this, but it might’ve been in a book, or I might’ve seen it online, but it’s like you don’t know stock until you own it yourself like something about having ownership of a stock. And then a big reason why I pushed for beginners, especially to buy at least one share right away because once you have a vested financial interest in the company, you start to pay a lot more intention to it and it becomes very, very easy to learn about the parts of the business model. And I think there’s even a big hedge fund guy who, who does that, where he, he’ll buy, I’ll see a stock he likes, he’ll buy like a smaller position and start to learn more and more about it. And then continue adding on if he still feels bullish about why he originally felt bullish about the company.

Andrew:                              26:46                     And that can be like a great strategy to use too. So I guess, you know, take away of the story from what I got from your GameStop tragedy. Try to try to keep an open eye cause you did mention you drank the Koolaid, you kind of had some confirmation bias going maybe where you filter out any negative news and then only looked at the positive. But it sounds like you, you didn’t drink a completely, and you kept in the open eye and once, once you finally realize the gravity of the situation you got out. And I think you’re happy you got out when you did versus possibly holding this thing to zero. Being a stock that’s traded under $5 and now has the possibility of being removed from some of the major exchanges so that could bring the stock down even further and push it into like that dreaded penny stock range.

Andrew:                              27:45                     So, who knows how it’s going to turn out, you know, you hope for shareholders and people who work there, you hope that any business can be turned around. But that’s tough to say. And you know, I think being some of the kind of away from the situation, I would agree with you, and I think the dividend confirmation is just, that’s like the nail in the coffin in my mind and sure that the company maybe does a miracle story, but I think nine times out of 10 they don’t. And so I, I’d, I would agree that anybody’s still holding on this would be a time to get out before it gets even worse. Yup. For sure. I didn’t have an idea on the inversion. I wanted to kind of throw out there before we signed off. Okay. , I guess that it’s relevant to certain personalities, at least I think for me, insert, I’m a weird cookie, so it’s like, maybe I’m not the best example, but for me it’s like I have different, I have very different, very, very different risk tolerances depending on what we’re talking about.

Andrew:                              28:57                     So I’m, for whatever reason, I’ve always been very risk-averse when it comes to the stock market versus other, activities in life where I’m very, let’s say foolish. What you can do. And you can also use inversion is if you do a self eval on yourself, you can maybe figure out that, hey, maybe I tend to focus on all the negative. And so we’re having fears and using them version can help me overcome fears. , another way you can do that is if you’re always like a pessimistic person, you can maybe be inverted. And think of the positives, like an example that popped into my head that that, TV show that you recommended to me, Dave, the last kingdom on that flicks. Oh yeah. Yup. Which all I met to like me, that was so slow for me, and I only continued watching it because you said you were watching it, so I wanted to be in there with you. And then I finally like got hooked. And once I did, there was a scene that I saw recently where a, it’s this like a young kid, and he’s now the Keene, and he’s leading one of his first battles. And he’s like, Oh, you know, this could be the hill where we die — and then thinking of all the things that go wrong. And then the guy who’s like the protagonist and he says, you know, the big warrior always winning all these battles. He’s like, or we could win.

Andrew:                              30:29                     You’re going to apply that. You can apply that to a lot of things. So it’s like if you’re finding that maybe, you know, you fall more on the pessimistic side rather than the greedy side, well maybe it’s a good idea for you to take the inversion and think about, hey, I could win, or I can find success. Or you know, I could be the investor who has a stock that takes off and, and becomes that, that that big winner for me. And I’m not going to be the investor who always loses to the market or you know, the person who tries to pick stocks. And as a lot of people like to kind of look down on those type of investors. You know, maybe flip it and be like, maybe I can be the person who can keep up with the market or beat the market over a very long period.

Andrew:                              31:18                     I mentioned, I think it was last week, and sometimes we get our schedules mixed up, but I mentioned how you could get excited about dividend investing just by seeing an example and seeing some real data. And I mentioned how you could, go on different stocks, investor relations websites and sometimes they have a calculator on there that shows kind of how their stock has done over the years. There’s another link that I like cause then you can type in any ticker, and they can give you that calculation. You put in the ticker; you put in how much, let’s say I invested 10,000, and then you put in, let’s say I invested 10,000 on this day and how much would it be worth today? And they have, I talked to you about this. So Dave’s going to put this in the show notes so you can use that link for yourself.

Andrew:                              32:10                     And I’m not going to try to read it cause it’s kind of long and it’d be impossible to remember. But you can go on the website einvestingforbeginners.com and look for IFB what the episodes are one, one, three. You can put that in the search bar, and you should get the show notes on there where you can find the link to this tool. So I used it for some, some big names, right? Coca-Cola, one that buffet bought the way, way back and it’s been one his best stock picks. I, I saw a stat very recently where Buffet’s getting over $500 million per year in dividends from his investment in Coca-Cola that he made in the eighties slash nineties. So crazy, right? So I put in, let’s say you put $10,000 into Coca-Cola and that was it. And you bought it for the years from today, like for the years back. So that’d be 1979, excuse me.

Andrew:                              33:09                     So that $10,000 with reinvested dividends, that’s key because it’s the reinvesting dividends and picking up the extra shares that provide such a big portion of the return, especially as you zoom out over a very, very big period. That and talk about a very, very big return. $10,000 would become $20 million for an average annual return of 20, almost 21% I put it in a couple of other tickers in there, just like big kind of household names that would have been great investments. , decades ago you put it in proctor and gamble, ticker symbol, PG $10,000 would become $24 million at the 21.5% annual return. And I wanted to say one more Walmart, $10,000 put in 1979 today would be 26 million, $444,000 for an annual return of over 21%. So you know, our, these are these names that are, you know, big names that you would have had to, were they big tech names?

Andrew:                              34:18                     Nowhere they name that only s you know, top-secret investors with them known? No, I think a lot of people would see Walmart stores or drink coca-cola products or have proctor and gamble products in, in their bathroom. Look at, look at, some of them, the bathroom products you use and the brand might be one thing, but it might say own the, buy a Parker and gamble on the label., you know, bet. Try it; check it out. So that’s the exciting thing that can happen. And I’m talking about a one-time investment, you know, maybe it’s not $10,000. Maybe it’s, let me, let me put it in. , the calculator, right? Maybe it’s $150, and we look at that for the year — even something small like $150, that turns into 34,000. Well, I’m sorry, $394,000 if it’s compounding that 21% a year.

Andrew:                              35:16                     So that’s why I say you don’t need every stock pick to be a winner. You could have just one that you know, blows everything out of the water and gives you not maybe $500 million in dividends every year, but maybe it’s, I don’t know, $1,000 in dividends every year. Maybe it’s 10,000; maybe it’s 100,000, maybe it funds your right. So just if, if you’re the of the type of personality who’s very risk-averse to the point where maybe you don’t get excited enough to want to risk money in the stock market, well maybe use the inversion principle to kind of flip that on its head and learn more about dividend investing. Learn more about why Andrew gets so crazy about dividend reinvestment and do some of these exercises for yourself. And maybe if you are like you kind of know, hey, I get excited with these stocks.

Andrew:                              36:10                     I’m always thinking that I’m going to double my money in, in the week. Or I’m always kind of really, have this exhilarating feeling when I’m buying these stocks. And maybe you fall more on the greed side. , it could be very beneficial for you, the rain things back and, and invert. And think, well maybe I should have some better risk management. So I think there are so many different ways you can use inversion as a powerful tool. I think it becomes one of those principles kind of similar to, the tortoise and the hare be very patient where it’s just like smart wisdom that’s been passed down through the generations. I think it’s clear when, when you talk about some of the big names, they have talked about Marcus or a Seneca, I’m that mathematician guy. These are a thing; this is a principle that’s really, that’s survived through generations as well. And so there’s a lot that we can learn from it and apply and use it to get real results in our life. And so I think it’s, it’s worth really learning and understanding and trying to implement in their own lives. Well said.

Dave:                                    37:21                     All right folks, we’ll, that is going to wrap up our discussion on inversion today. Thank you for listening and hope you enjoyed our conversation, and you picked a finger or two out there that can help you with your life as well as your investing. I will go ahead and put all the links that we talked about today in the show notes, to the article, to the calculators that Andrew was talking about, as well as some of the past podcasts that we referenced as well. So without any further ado, you guys go out there and invest with a margin of safety emphasis on the safety. Have a great week, and we’ll talk to y’all next week.

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