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IFB106: The Sears Bankruptcy Fallout – Is Telsa Next?

Announcer:                        00:00                     You’re tuned in to the Investing for Beginners podcast. Finally, step by step premium investment guidance for beginners led by Andrew Sather and Dave Ahern. To decode industry jargon, silence crippling confusion and help you overcome emotions by looking at the numbers. Your path to financial freedom starts now.

Dave:                                    00:35                     All right folks, we’ll welcome to the Investing for Beginners podcast. This is episode 106, tonight Andrew and I are going to talk about that, the disaster, true. That is Sears and all the goings on with that. And talk a little bit about bankruptcies and some other things. So Andrew, why don’t you go ahead and tell us about the article that you sent me today and we can talk a little bit about that.

Andrew:                              00:55                     Yeah, it’s actually kinda depressing then, would piss a lot of people off, especially the people that work there. So Eddie Lampert, he was the former Sears CEO. Um, and I don’t know, maybe you know better than I was. He, did he have like, um, a big ownership stake in the company too? Is that why?

Dave:                                    01:17                     I think so. Yeah. He’s a hedge fund billionaire. He was supposed to turn series into the next Berkshire Hathaway.

Andrew:                              01:26                     How’d that, how’d that work out?

Dave:                                    01:28                     Not so good,

Andrew:                              01:30                     So I guess he bought them out of bankruptcy. Sears had promised their workers that they would pay a week of severance for every year that they were at the company. So this woman, and this is from the CBS News, are the, this woman Brenda from California said after 21 years of service, I was laid off in January of 2019 and received just four weeks. Um, so obviously not that that’s a sticky situation for everybody involved, right? You have workers obviously very upset, nobody likes to lose their job. And then the severance debacle and then you have the fact that lamper probably lost a ton of money on this, I think somewhere on here. Yeah. He bought the struggling chain for 5.2 billion earlier in the year. So from our perspective as investors, maybe we, we understand like what happens in the bankruptcy and then from there, what that, what the implications are for investors.

Andrew:                              02:42                     So you think about the structure of a company, you have that an equity, um, and you, you learn about this in the basic finance class about structure. And if you go back to our back to the basics series that started there, then around episode four, the uh, we talked a bit about this, how basically the way that accompany raises cash is they either do it through debt. So they, they give out these bonds and the company has to pay back investors with a bond coupon for a certain amount of years depending on the bond. And then the second way is they give out equity. And that’s where investors come in and you get ownership stake in that business. So as a part owner, you get hard claim to the profits, you know, hopefully if they’re, if they’re running the company right and they’re painted dividend like we like to argue.

sears bankruptcy

Andrew:                              03:35                     So at now, now that we understand their, there’s debt and there’s equity during a bankruptcy, the priority for who’s going to get paid is the debt holders first and then the equity holders lay there. And so that’s why when you think about investing in stocks, and this is not a popular opinion, it’s not something that’s really even talked about much and it’s a shame cause you, you need to know what, what the worst case scenario is. I’ll you, I’ll use like a quick metaphor. I started doing power lifting and doing these squats where, um, there was something that, you know, I’d gone to the gym for years, but they’ve never really done really heavy compound movements, squats, like, like, um, some power lifters like to do. So I started doing that and it was, it was terrifying because it’s one of those exercises where you’re putting some of the heaviest weights compared to any other exercise and that’s going on your back.

Andrew:                              04:36                     And you can only imagine what would happen if the borrower to fall and it would crush your back or crush your neck, anything like that. Right. So it can be a very frightening experience, especially if you’ve never done it before. Well, I learned from somebody and I can’t remember who they said it might’ve been, um, Nettie from strong lifts, which if you’re an absolute beginner, I’d definitely recommend his program that helped me years ago. Anyway, he’s, he, he said fail. He said fail first. So like if you’re squatting correctly, there will be safety bars so that when the bar, when like if you ever can’t lift the way because it’s too heavy, then you can just drop the bar on the safety bars and they’ll keep you safe. So he said, I want you to go into the gym and do that on purpose. Just let the bar drop and fail.

Andrew:                              05:30                     And so once you do that and you fail, now you, you don’t feel scared about it. And now you can really push yourself and put a lot of way on there and really get those gains that only come with maximum effort because you know what the worst case scenario is and you’re not scared of it as investors. Why don’t we do that? If you’re gonna buy individual stocks and you’re not going to think about what’s the worst thing that can happen, well then the Ae, if it does happen, you have no idea what, what the implications are for yourself as an investor. And so you’re gonna be stressed out and freak out over that be, it might be so traumatizing that you never want to invest ever again. And I think that’s the absolute worst case for any investor and see if you don’t know what the downside risk is, then how you’re gonna, how you’re gonna avoid it if you don’t even know what the characteristics are that lead to that.

Andrew:                              06:22                     So that’s in a round about way of saying, I think why this topic is, I’m so passionate about it, it’s so important to me and it’s one of those, I guess along with the drip, the drip campaign that I’m on and trying to get everybody that you’re at dividend reinvestment. I’m also a heavy ambassador, global ambassador for bankruptcy research. So maybe we can really talk about that today. Did you have anything to add? As far as, I’m trying to keep it really basic with the debt versus the equity and the how the implications are for bankruptcies. So did I miss anything before we move on? No, I don’t think so. I think those are pretty good, uh, outline in a Yo laying out of some of the basic terms and kind of how, how it works. So I guess I’m kind of curious to hear where you’re going to go from this.

Andrew:                              07:12                     Okay. So because the debt holders get more priority than the equity holders, what tends to happen is that like a bond holder, let’s say the company owns bill over here, he has a bond that’s worth $1,000. This is a bad example, but it’s $1,000. And so the company owes him $1,000, right? What happens in the bankruptcy is there’s all this court and legal stuff to that that has to get taken care of. Like the article said, Lambert’s talking to a judge and asking him if they can, he can not pay severance. So it’s all this legal jargon. And when I say bankruptcy research, I don’t mean that because that’s a whole nother beast on its own. What I mean is just the very basics and that’s why we’re talking about the basics. So because let’s say Sears rose bill $1,000 through a company bond, um, they’re not gonna have enough money to pay that likely that’s why they’re going bankrupt is because they can’t meet all those debt payments.

Andrew:                              08:18                     So what tends to happen is through court and all these court dates and everything, um, there is still some money. There’s usually, you know, stores might close, properties might get sold off and so there will be some cash. And so it’s up to the judge and the courts to figure out how much money is going to be distributed to who. So let’s say bill was, oh, the thousand dollars he might get for the cents on the dollar, so at least he gets something. But, um, as a bond holder, he lands, he lent them a thousand and you only gets, let’s say 440%. So what that means for the equity investor, the stock, the person buying stock. And Sears and in, in most every bankruptcy case, all the money is going to be going to those bond holders trying to get and they’re going to try to get as much as they can close to what they put in and what they were owed.

Andrew:                              09:10                     So the equity holders are going to be left with nothing if not close to nothing. And so that’s why it’s such a worst case scenario because you can have a stock market crash, you can have, we’ve seen plenty of stock market crashes and you can lose 50% 60% 70% some of them might recover, some of them might not, but there’s no recovering from a complete bankruptcy. That’s your, your money gone forever. So to move on now it’s like, okay, we understand. Yes, this is something we should definitely consider. And we’ve kind of touched on it a little bit here and there throughout some of the archives of our episodes, but hopefully I can maybe boil down into into some useful, useful pieces of information that we can use and we can do when we evaluate stocks. So what I did when I wanted to do this bankruptcy research, because again, like you can even, at least at the time when I did that, I don’t know what the case is now.

Andrew:                              10:12                     Like I, I remember trying to go on Amazon or even Google and just kind of googling, searching for, hey, you know, who wrote the book about bankruptcies and, and really like the stock market side of it and not so much like the story side. And I just didn’t see anything at the time that might’ve changed now. But, so what I had to do is, you know, I had, I had stocks that I was looking at their financials. That’s obviously part of picking stocks, buying stocks. We talk about that all the time, valuation and how different ideas on how you can do that. So as I was doing that, I was looking, and this was very, very, um, very young into my, I was very young into my investing career. So I was looking at two things. I was looking at stocks that were, that had performed well and then going back 10 years, 20 years, let’s see why these stocks have done so well.

Andrew:                              11:11                     And so I would go back and look at the financials way, way, way back then. So that’s why sidebar and I say this because I’ve been getting a lot of emails about this lately. That’s why if you buy the value type indicator spreadsheet and you see I have Q one Q two, Q three, Q four, uh, um, having you input the, the share price for each core there. And so that’s something you can find in the 10 k. But if you’re using the spreadsheet on the stock that you’d like to buy today, you don’t have to do that. You can just input the current share price into one of those four rows. And I’ll probably make an update sometime in the future where I’ll make that just its own row. But for now that would be the work around. So you don’t feel like you have to find that because I know it’s not the easiest to find in the annual report.

Andrew:                              12:03                     And you can just put in the current share price anyway. Well I was doing again was looking back at the history of stocks that did very, very well. And then on the flip side of that was stocks that did very, very poorly and went into bankruptcy. And so I took, you know, because financial statements, if you look on the sec.gov there, they were really only posted online since 94 so if you want to find the annual reports before that, it’s very hard to find them. So it’s hard to sometimes find that financial data. So that’s why when I talk about the value trap indicator and the book where I wrote about all the findings of, of these major bankruptcies, that’s why I picked the time period of the 21st century. Everything 2000 and beyond was because anything before that, it’s really hard to find the financial data. And you know, before that website was even available, it’s probably harder for investors to kind of have that information freely available for them. So I thought it wouldn’t be fair. Right. So I went into this research kind of thinking, I don’t know when I’m going to see here, I want to just like a detective go in and kind of snoop around and see if there’s some way to prevent.

Andrew:                              13:27                     For investors to prevent any sort of the bankruptcy hits from, from affecting the stocks that they buy. So I also try to on the buy side, right? And I think if you talk to any investor who has a decent amount of experience, they’ll tell you there’s a million reasons why I stock and do well. So good luck trying to find, you know, um, characteristics that lead to a stock market, a stock success. It’s just so random. And a stock could take off for any number of reasons. But when it came to that, the flip side with the bankruptcies, again, I looked through with a magnifying glass and I started to see a lot of similar similarities. So if that’s, if you’re a day, that driven numbers type of person like I am, then the, the spreadsheet package is really nice because I took all of that data and I was inputting it manually myself and going through, okay, here’s the blockbuster bankruptcy, here’s the circuit city bankruptcy, here’s the Lehman brothers bankruptcy, here’s the worldcom bankruptcy. I was going through each of those and filling out with as much data as I could that I could find from the sec.gov website and all the, the major financial metrics that we talk about. And that is used in the value trap indicator spreadsheet. So things like revenue a, which is sales earnings, which is profit, equity, those type of things. So if you purchase a spreadsheet package, you can get access to all of that data. And so as I started the inputting, those took a long time, but I started to see the similarities. And so, well I kind of found shocking, and this relates directly to the Sears bankruptcy too, was there are stocks where they will have years, years of negative earnings. So I mentioned this on a previous episode. I think it was the stock selling three strikes you’re out episode. But the biggest, most common characteristic of a bankruptcy is a, a stock has negative earnings and then they go bankrupt. So that’s why I don’t buy stocks with negative earnings because I don’t like taking that risk. Um, that was the most common characteristic. Uh, the whole having multiple years of negative earnings wasn’t as common, but it was still a happened a lot more than I thought it would.

Andrew:                              16:02                     So it’s like as an investor, uh, I’ll take Sears for example. I have this, again, this took me a while to, because they had so many years of negative earnings. So I’m counting here on the, on the Vti spreadsheet, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, seven years of negative earnings. So we’re talking about if you’re an investor in 2015 and the company had five years of negative earnings, why are you buying? Why don’t you just wait until they prove that they can turn a profit again or in 2013 or in 2011 you know, and especially in 2017 2018 that it just doesn’t make any sense to me. If a company has shown so many years of negative earnings on their track record, why would you even think to buy it? But you know, people want to do what they wanted to do, so that’s cool for them.

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Andrew:                              17:01                     The other blinding characteristic about the Sears bankruptcy, this is Greg still there like a poster child of bankruptcy. They did everything wrong and the their value type indicator score definitely reflects that. They had negative shareholders’ equity. So shareholder’s equity as a, as a quick basic overview, that’s a book value. It’s the difference between assets and liabilities. So if you’re like a individual person, you can think of it as like your net worth. You would take how much you own and you subtract what you owe. That leaves you with your net worth. And for companies that’s like book value, shareholders equity, that’s, that’s what it’s, that’s how it’s presented in the balance sheet. So for Sears, they had more liabilities than assets. I don’t know how that’s even sustainable and especially if you’re losing money, it’s just not how you owe more than you own. That’s done. That’s, that’s going to be bankruptcy.

Andrew:                              17:55                     So they had both of those things. I ran the value trap indicated there on sear on Sears and it came out to, you know, it’s going to depend on what share price you put in, but 2151 um, and so to give you context, the Vti is on a number scale. So if a stock scores 250 or below, then it’s going to be a strong by anywhere between two 50 to 800 it’s, you can either say it’s a hold or are you monetary or it’s on your watch list. Maybe it’s close to a buy and anything 800 and above is going to be a strong sell. So 800 and above. Sears was 2151 very, very high. I see no reason why anybody should have been in that stock for years and years. And so it kind of brings me to my point in the conclusion of all that bankruptcy research I did years ago, is that okay, it’s still relevant today.

Andrew:                              18:51                     And every time I do a new VTI on the new stock that just got announced that they went bankrupt, I see the same thing and it’s proven to be true over and over again. And so like in the case of Sears, they filed, I think, I think Dave, we were talking off the air, we said, or you said that they, you saw an article they file, they announced that they were filing bankruptcies somewhere in October of last year. Their annual report was march of last year. So we’re talking about seven months where if you were being the type of investor, like, like we like to preach and let’s say you had, you had bought Sears because you didn’t know much about investing, you didn’t know anything about financial statements. So let’s say you bought Sears back in 2015 right? I didn’t even run the Vti for 2016 or 2015 or any of those previous years.

Andrew:                              19:45                     And I would bet that those were strong cells as well. But let’s say, you know, you had bought the stock and then the earnings and the annual report came out in March of 2018 and so you saw that and then you ran the Vti spreadsheet on it and then it gave you the strong cell. So you had seven months between that time to make that sell or they’re happening with your broker before the company finally went under. And that was the other thing I found fascinating was that there would be oftentimes many years, which was probably the case with serious too, but many years and then if not years, at least three, six nine 12 months where a stock would clearly show and its financial statements that the business model was in trouble. They were having problems with profits and sometimes like in the case of Sears, they owed more money than they owned. And so these are huge red flags.

Andrew:                              20:46                     And again, if you look through the data and you read the book that comes up the spreadsheet package, you’ll see that over and over and over again, these huge big names where people said, oh, Washington mutual went bankrupt. I had no idea they would. And then you look at the financials and it’s blaringly obvious. And so when you get that kind of information on your side, you know and understand what the worst case scenario is, what kind of true downside risk really looks like and how you can avoid it and how you can keep an eye for it in the future. And that’s really the whole mission of this because I would hate to see a bunch of people lose money in the stock market because they’re misinformed or they don’t understand the how to invest. I guess things to think about and look at. And the thing that I like about it is that it helps you dig into the financials and you start to get a better sense of really what’s going on with the company in the Internet.

Dave:                                    21:52                     We’re talking about this off air as well. And you know, we were both marveling at how buffet can just do all these calculations in his head. But you know, he also got to remember he’s been doing it for 60 years. So anything that you’ve got that much practice at your just eventually going to be able to look at the information and make a determination quicker than others. And that’s one of the things that I like about these tools like Andrews is that it can help you start to learn how financials work and how everything is interconnected and what you really, really need to look for as opposed to just looking at, you know, hey the sales are going up. Well that’s awesome obviously, but what are they doing with that money? And that has a big bearing on what happens with a company because as we’ve talked about many, many times when you’re buying a stock, you’re not just buying a pretty ticker that says SLJ l s h l d like Sears.

Dave:                                    22:50                     You’re actually buying the company and you’re buying everybody that’s involved with the company as well. So, you know, having, knowing what these people are doing with the money is equally as important as you know, what you’re buying. And you know, Andrew’s Vti is, is an amazing tool. And we were talking off air, you know, he’s, he’s done it so much himself that he’s, he’s gotten to the point now where sometimes he could just look at a company and he’s, he has a good idea of what it’s going to come up with before even inputs the numbers, which I thought was really kind of interesting. So it kind of goes back to that whole, you know, the practice, what you preach and using, using the tools that will help you learn how to use things and how things will be interconnected better. I think it’s funny now looking back because this was something I created a long time ago, you know, but 20 I can’t remember what the year was, 2014, 15.

Andrew:                              23:46                     Um, and like if you, if you purchase a spreadsheet now, you’ll see there’s like, it’s on version like 5.5, 5.6 something. And it went through a lot of iterations. But when I first started out, this is maybe a bit of dumb luck, but this is why it’s worked out so well for so many people is that I was a beginner and I was figuring it out myself first. So we, Dave and I like to talk about how we’re both kind of self educated with this. We don’t have finance backgrounds, the traditional kind of finance backgrounds like a lot of people do. We just kind of were more DIY type people who like to read books that were written about buffet and Graham and some of the big, you know, Peter Lynch, some of the more famous investors and then kind of piece meal, all of the financial information afterwards.

Andrew:                              24:37                     So like we didn’t, I mean I’m, I don’t want to speak for you today, but I certainly didn’t take like a structured finance class or any sort of, you know, uh, DCF valuation type, advanced, um, modeling class, right? It was, it was more like I tried to, to kind of do it myself and, and pick up little bits here and there from whether I was reading. And so when I built this spreadsheet, it was more a tool for myself. So I can like I based on what I was reading and then knowing that hey, these things seem to be important. For example, um, price to earnings is very popular and it’s used by a lot. And you know, even though it’s probably the most popular metric that investors use, it’s actually also very useful. Benjamin Graham likes to look for low price to earnings. Peter Lynch likes to look for a low price to earnings.

Andrew:                              25:35                     So to me it’s like okay well I want to calculate the price to earnings for stocks. So I made a little row in the co in the spreadsheet was like price to earnings and then I made sure in order for that to be calculated while I needed the net earnings. Right. So then that earned a place in the spreadsheet and then there was the price to book, which again Benjamin Graham price to sales, which is used by James O’shaughnessy. And so as that got built out, it ended up becoming something like, I can count right here right now cause I have it pulled up, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine. So nine rows. And then the rest, that’s just what I’m putting in from the financial statements. And then the rest of it’s all calculated for, uh, with all my fancy formulas on the back end.

Andrew:                              26:24                     But that’s it. So really narrowing the, really narrowing these 10 k’s, which we’ve talked about in the past and kind of given overviews on, on how those things are laid out. Hundreds of, you know, over a hundred pages of Info. And narrowing that down into nine rows makes it very digestible, makes it, it gives you like that next step where man, I’m an investor and I don’t know anything about financial statements but I would like to. Um, and so by inputting these yourself, it becomes a valuable learning tool. And I’ve found, at least for myself, the best way that I’ve ever learned anything is just by going out and doing it. I could read something about, you know, how to do x and read it a hundred times and not get it. But you know, maybe if I read it two times and then do it myself two times, now all of a sudden I, that’s how I learn.

Andrew:                              27:20                     So that’s kind of why it worked for me. And then as it’s moved along and I’ve made it available for other people and they’ve said how it’s helped them understand financial statements. That’s really why. Because when there was bill, it came from such a fresh slate and such a, it came from a beginner, you know? And so it kind of worked out that way, which I never expected where it became a valuable learning tool. And I think now looking back with hindsight, that’s, it’s more, that’s where it’s even more valuable than actually the formula itself, which is still, I’m finding very valuable too. But it’s kind of funny how that worked out.

Dave:                                    28:00                     It is funny. And you know, I think I was thinking about while you were talking is one of the things that buffet talks a lot about is not losing money. You know, rule number one, don’t lose money. Rule number two, don’t forget rule number one. And really what he’s talking about is things like bankruptcy because that is a permanent loss of your capital. If you invest $1,000 in seniors and it goes bankrupt use at all. And that’s what he’s talking about. He’s not talking about the fluctuations from day to day. If you buy Berkshire today and it drops a dollar tomorrow, that’s not what he’s talking about. What he’s talking about is the permanent loss of your capital if the company does poorly as far as you know, the abilities and capabilities are doing or whether the company goes bankrupt and bankrupt. C is one of the biggest, you know, permanent losses of capital that you can experience for sure.

Dave:                                    28:52                     And another thing Andrew and I were talking about off air before we came on was we were talking about current bankruptcies cause it’s not something you really hear a lot about. Obviously Sears was a big name, a toys r us, which was a recent one as well. Obviously a big name. But there were also some smaller ones that we didn’t hear anything about. Like, uh, Andrew mentioned diesel, uh, one bankruptcy and when he was in high school, that was the brand of jeans you had to have and they’re no longer a Charlotte reus. It was a company, his store in the malls that went bankrupt recently, you know, so there’s some other companies that are going bankrupt that this kind of tool could help you avoid investing in something like that and give you an idea of, hey, if I’m really going to buy Tesla, what’s really going on with them?

Dave:                                    29:40                     And you start plugging all those numbers into the Vti, I guarantee you you’re going to come up with a do not buy recommendation. And those kinds of things can help you just as much as hitting a home run by investing in Amazon when it first came out. Uh, you know, avoiding losing money is a very, very large portion of what you need to try to do when you’re investing. You know, after all, our tagline is, you know, invest with a margin of safety, emphasis on the safety. This is all part of that safety part of it. And these are all the things that Andrew and I talk about a lot and there’s a reason why we talk about them is because we’re trying to, you know, we all work hard for our money and we all want our money to work hard for us. But part of that is also being smart in making our decisions and not investing in companies that are on the way out or could end up in bankruptcy.

Dave:                                    30:32                     And like Andrew was saying, you know, anybody that looked at any of these financial statements could have been surprised by you know, Washington mutual going out of business or toys r us or going out of business or Sears going out of business. It shouldn’t have been a shock to anybody. And if it was, it’s because they weren’t looking in the right place and it’s not super hard to find. But you also have to know where to look. And that’s where this is something like what Andrew has created can really help you with that. Elevate. You mentioned Tesla. Are you willing to go out on a limb and say they’re then not the next bankruptcy, but eventually it will happen. Yeah, I could see that too. If nobody buys them out, it’s, yeah, Yup, Yup. It’s coming. You know, we don’t know when, but yeah, it’s, it’s coming.

Dave:                                    31:19                     I mean the cracks are already starting to show in the last six months to a year. Uh, the stock is not done well and I just, you know, the production and everything that they got going on, it’s, it’s a train wreck. Here’s the real question. Are, do you have any desire to buy of Tesla or drive one for some period of time? Do I, yeah. No. At this point, no. Um, for me personally, I would love to help with the environment and do all that great stuff. But where I live, it just doesn’t seem as feasible. Uh, I don’t, I personally have never seen a Tesla in Wisconsin. I’m sure there are some, but I haven’t seen one and I don’t hear anybody talking about them. If I had one, I wouldn’t even know where to go to charge it other than having a station at my house, you know what I mean?

Dave:                                    32:17                     So, you know, if I was going to drive to Chicago, which is three and a half hours or so from where I live, could I do that back? I don’t know. You know, there’s, there’s so many, there’s so many unknowns about it. You know, for me personally, are they great cars? I’m sure they are. I just personally, I’ve never, I’ve never been in one, I’ve never known anybody who’s on one and here in the Midwest don’t seem to be as big a deal. They probably have more. I bet they’re probably a lot more prevalent in your neck of the woods or in southern California for example. But here, ah,

Andrew:                              32:49                     Way More than I’m, I’m back in Raleigh now. So way more than Raleigh. Yeah. Yeah. You still see them. I mean, uh, there’s a pretty nice area. It’s like there’s like a nice target. Do you know what I mean? Whether it was like the targets and then there’s the nice targets. So they have a nice target here in Raleigh where there’s like Tesla, like brand new Tesla charging stations. So I think that’s where I got really cool. But you know, like out when I’m out and about, I don’t see too many of them. Not like California where it was like, Yo, did you see a Tesla today? Yes. Did I see one, two? Yeah. All right. So yeah, no, I think I would not be surprised if like Tesla is the car to own right for the next 20 years.

Andrew:                              33:40                     But that doesn’t mean that it’s a great investment now because with a, maybe this is a good way to close with bankruptcy restructurings, you know, oftentimes things can get put together and the company name can live on or the company’s products can live on. The only thing that will happen is maybe they changed the stock ticker and guess what? Guess who paid for all of that? The investors who bought the stock and then they lose it all when that goes bankrupt. So when we talk about stock Lake Tesla, it’s not that we don’t think they’re going to be around forever. I think. I think if anything that’s probably more likely, but it’s also more likely that people who are buying now or people that are holding are going to really be the ones left holding the bag because the financials just don’t back up a good investment.

Dave:                                    34:27                     Right? Yeah, exactly. And I think to tag off of that, the people that are invested now, if the company does go bankrupt and it gets restructured or somebody else comes in and buys it out of, pays off all the debt, uh, to the court, then the shareholder older still lose all their money. And so it, yeah, it could continue to live on and it very well may, but with somebody else running it and somebody else doing the stuff for the company, but the people that invest now are going to be the ones left holding the bag for sure. All right folks, we’ll, that is going to wrap up our discussion tonight. I hope you enjoyed our conversation about bankruptcies and Andrew’s in depth look into the Vti and how that tool can help you make money as well as save you a lot of money as well. So without any further ado, I’m going to go ahead and sign us off. You guys have a great week and a vest with a margin of safety emphasis on the safety and we’ll talk to y’all next week.

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